Is spanking children "abuse" or "discipline"?

[Takka 13,376]

Much like: Are you good because you fear the consequences, or are you good because you're not an asshole?

 

Kids can be assholes, but how you teach them to get past it can vary. You could argue that it doesn't matter why someone behaves well, as long as they do. However it seems obvious that learning to behave correctly because of a set of morals is better than learning how to behave because you fear punishment. I would imagine a person with the former mindset would have fewer ulterior motives in life.

[TCK 2,164]

I would say I had the opposite progression of things in my house, Mars. My dad and mom were 20 and 16 respectively when I was born. When my parents first spanked me, it was out of anger that I misbehaved. However they learned as we all got older and it became what it should have always been - a simple shock to the system to illustrate a stern reprimand.

[Weps 1,378]

A Logical conclusion:

It's abusive discipline, not either or. Applying physical violence and pain to a child is abuse, it doesn't matter if it's being done in the name of discipline. Whether or not it's "OK" is another question entirely, and a useless question at that, as in some cultures it is 100% "OK" to behead your daughter for taking off a hat. It also depends on what kind of person you want a child to be: Someone who fears pain and consequence at all times, or someone who looks toward your ideas and opinion with respect. Inflicting pain to induce respect is a flimsy form of respect that can breed rebellious thoughts and actions in response, this is rooted into most larger mammalian brains. If pain is your primary motivator for a person to respect your authority, they will fake it and hate it.

 

If you want quick results with little effort on your part, spanking is the best option. However, just like a prescription drug, there are side effects.

 

A Personal conclusion:

I grew up in an evangelical christian household, and hitting/spanking was normal for us. Our pastor vehemently pressured my parents to hit me and my siblings, claiming they were bad parents if they didn't. With "the bible" (AKA their idea of the bible) to back it up, and the fear caused by not wanting to be bad parents, spanking was the only possible way my parents knew how to discipline children. It started out with a calm, calculating attitude, in which they would rationally approach teaching me a lesson. Then it degraded over the years, and turned into something my parents did out of anger. Because it became something done out of anger, it meant spanking wasn't the only thing allowed. Fists were used, faces were slapped, and before I knew it I was being hit across the back with a 5 pound wooden kayak paddle (which I bought with my own cash). I only ever feared the punishment, and no one ever took the time to tell me why what I was doing was wrong.

 

My father also pointed a loaded Colt .45 at me and choked me out, so obviously my parents weren't cut out for child discipline in the first place. People like that shouldn't even consider physical punishment as an option, and yet it's encouraged regardless. Physical discipline is recklessly pointed at as if it's great for everyone, but it isn't.

 

I respect you and your opinion, Mars. I really do, but I can't agree at all.

 

Abuse, by definition is improper use or treatment. The use of physical discipline does not equate to abuse, the disciplining authority is what brings it to an abusive point. I was struck as a child, I didn't turn out hating my parents or their ideals, I also respect them very much, both professional and as authority figures, but neither were my parents abusive in their distribution of discipline.

 

Physical discipline is also not the only discipline that has the potential to be used in an abusive manner. I know people who where emotional and mentally abused, because that was used as discipline. Those scars run deeper than any physical scar can.

 

 

I truly am sorry for the abuse you suffered, I am. However, just like anything, physical discipline can not just end with the punishment. It needs to be used as a form of reinforcement, not as a threat. A child has to know they're being punished for an act they commited, which is why you verbally reinforce the point. It also requires the display of control and love.

 

NO ONE should ever discipline a child in anger, regardless of what form of discipline, it should be done in a controlled and understanding manner.

 

[Kalipsan 494]

I respect you and your opinion, Mars. I really do, but I can't agree at all.

 

Abuse, by definition is improper use or treatment. The use of physical discipline does not equate to abuse, the disciplining authority is what brings it to an abusive point. I was struck as a child, I didn't turn out hating my parents or their ideals, I also respect them very much, both professional and as authority figures, but neither were my parents abusive in their distribution of discipline.

 

Physical discipline is also not the only discipline that has the potential to be used in an abusive manner. I know people who where emotional and mentally abused, because that was used as discipline. Those scars run deeper than any physical scar can.

 

I was going to say this exactly. 

 

To add on to what Weps said, I personally do not believe anyone should have used the Bible to pressure your family into physically disciplining their child. I don't recall any bible passages about beating your child. If anyone finds some, please post them! I'm genuinely curious about that. 

 

Using physical violence to a child is abuse only after a reasonable point when the child's "lesson has been taught." For instance, should a mother repeatedly spank her son daily for stealing a lolipop a week ago? I don't think so, but some people may. Which brings me to quote this post: 

 

The way I choose to raise my children is not the business of others or the Government. Now this is not to say we allow abuse to go on unhindered, but we also don't allow someone to dictate to another how they can do things.

 

There are people like Tucker, to which the idea is foreign, but each region and each culture has a different way of punishing bad behavior and so long as isn't abusive, it really is nothing to be concerned over.

 

On a side note, I have a family member that wasn't disciplined, physically or otherwise. Never have I see such a man act like a child. Parents don't lie when they tell you; "You'll thank me later".

 

The way I raise my children is none of anyone elses' business at the end of the day, but mine. However, that also means that I have the responsibility to decide what discipline is right and accepted  in my culture. I can't go around beating my child over the head with a metal rod, because it's not right (with the definition of what is right and not right defined by the culture we live in). 

 

To the "You'll thank me later" comment, I agree to an extent. If parents do in-fact discipline the right way, the child will turn out to be a much better member of society because he would have learned right/wrong, yes/no, mine/yours, etc. Spanking is just a way to enforce this. 

 

Is spanking abuse? No. 

 

Is abuse abuse? Yes. 

 

Can we give a blanket answer on what abuse is? I can't, it depends on the culture you live in. 

[TCK 2,164]

I believe the Bible does say in Proverbs something about "bringing your child up with the rod." I can't recall exactly though.

In any case, Proverbs is a book that applies to anyone, not just Christians. It's full of life rules that any rational person would be following. For example, "he who argues with fools becomes one." So I'm sure it's not encouraging violent beating.

[Weps 1,378]

I believe the Bible does say in Proverbs something about "bringing your child up with the rod." I can't recall exactly though.

In any case, Proverbs is a book that applies to anyone, not just Christians. It's full of life rules that any rational person would be following. For example, "he who argues with fools becomes one." So I'm sure it's not encouraging violent beating.

 

Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

[TCK 2,164]

And that might not even mean a literal rod necessarily, it might just be using the most common form of discipline at the time to refer to discipline overall.

[Pandora 455]

There is a difference between discipline and abuse and it depends on the intention, the situation and context. Example, a parent having a shitty day/life and taking out their frustrations on a child mentally, physically or emotionally is not discipline, that's abuse vs. gentle smacking of an overly curious toddler if they keep touching the hot oven in order to first teach them between right and wrong for their own safety as reasoning with them is not yet possible or effective to get the message across.

As a child grows older I think parents should aim to turn the relationship with their kids into one where there can be more amicable ways to reason and understand each other without resorting to the fist or other forms of punishment to demand cooperation. Ideally a child will never misbehave but that is not true. It is a parent's job to be a role model and to set the moral and ethical boundaries of which is expected behaviour and actions to help them transition into life. The least amount of force used to get an amicable outcome is what parents should aim for. It is a two way process of understanding the individual child where no two children are the same. Understanding what is troubling them is half the battle and some parents don’t have the time or the energy for it (they should make time).

 

Personally, my kid brother and I had the belt, stick or the hand, sometimes it was just what we needed and sometimes it was overboard and ineffective at certain ages =P. My dad, although a good person and a very smart man, was a traditional hard ass type (and his dad according to him was apparently worse). We were explicitly reminded it was his house, his rules and if we didn’t like anything the door was open and heaven’s forbid if we disrespected him in anyway (luckily we could run pretty fast). He’s softened up over the years and has realised money does not equal power or control over his family because at the end of the day all he really wanted was to be loved, appreciated and respected and he could achieve that without the facade. We most definitely have a better understanding of each other now than we did in the past.

My mum is a lot less strict, more nurturing and empathetic which kept us grounded. She didn’t care if we were last or if we were first, who was right or wrong, whether she had a good or bad day, she supported us no matter what and how we did it or whether we did it at all. She reminded us of our roots and that she loved us when we least deserved it/needed it the most and that she raised kind hearted children. One thing I respect most about her and my dad, is that although somewhat religious they never dampened our education and our independence and never shoved their agendas down our throats. All in all, I have utmost respect for the both of them.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Pandora

[NeX 1,756]

In my personal experience, spanking and any corporal punishment was reserved for when I was purposely being defiant against other forms of punishment.  For instance, I would be grounded, but I would sneak out or do things that were forbidden. So they would take something away, like my computer. Only to find that I knew the password and snuck onto it in the middle of the night. For me, as a child, I was too stubborn for any other form of punishment to work as effectively.  Would other things have worked given time? Maybe. But it saved a lot of effort on their part and a lot of rebellious years on mine to just get on with the paddlin' now and again.

 

Part of the respect of parents, or any authority figure, is partly derived from fear anyway.  Respect that has no fear involved is usually non-authoritative, such as a wise elder or a spouse.  In these situations, the elder or spouse shouldn't have to rely on fear, when speaking openly and having discussions about disagreements will sort things out if both parties are attempting to find a common ground.  Your drill instructor in the marine corps does not have the liberty of time or patience with you, and if a quick foot in the ass will get you over that wall, great. Even if the fear of the foot is what could potentially save your life, it's worth setting an example for.

 

I think in childrens' cases it also shows that there is a definite boundary if used correctly.  Physical punishment shouldn't be the first thing parents jump to, if it is, it implies that rather than a form of discipline and correction, the spanking is just a way for them to vent their anger at the situation on the child and call it "deserved".  I think many people lack the strength of character to maintain that balance, because no matter how wonderful a person, smacking the shit out of a pissy little bitch of a child has got to feel fucking GREAT. It's just important that it's realized that beyond this point, usually unstated, is where physical correction is needed.  

 

Another example, is when I would deliberately back-talk my mom. I have a pretty quick wit and a sharp tongue, and I used these to really say some horrible hurtful things to my mother. Now, some people will say "oh, well she should have talked about how that made her feel and that would inspire empathy in you blah blah blah". 13 year old me did not give a FUCK about feelings, but I sure cared about that open handed slap across the mouth.  After I sulked a while, then the talk would happen, as well as an explanation as to why I got smacked, as well as the eventual realization that it was, in fact, my fault, and not just a cruel sadistic method of torture by my parental overlords.

 

/$0.02

[Daywu 194]

Most kids don't learn their lesson unless you give them a spanking. But It should not be too hard and should not be hit in the face. Otherwise that is abuse.