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In face of Donald Trump's Muslim ban, Canada's Trudeau welcomes refugees

54 posts in this topic

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7 minutes ago, DeadHamster said:

Dismissing the people that feel this way is why your candidate lost, and mine is making real changes.

It's your inability to try debating a subject, let alone apply logic to a problem that makes you dismissable.

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4 hours ago, DeadHamster said:

Dismissing the people that feel this way is why your candidate lost, and mine is making real changes. 

Actually, all sides were dismissing people who didn't feel the same way they felt. That's why political discussions like these often turn into shit-throwing contests rather than an actual debate between two or more adults who actually have something to say. And yes, if you want to debate issues with the United States and the world, that's perfectly fine. Any healthy discussion, as long as it complies with our community guidelines, will always be accepted in Open Carnage. This, however, isn't a healthy discussion which is why people are overreacting the way they are.


As for my stance, I don't "own" a candidate because I don't vote based on a party. Johnson, Hillary, Trump, Sanders, whatever are as much my candidates as Deez Nuts. Rather, I vote based on the principles I agree with. I don't believe that xenophobia has ever, in any country's history, resulted in solving any problems.

DiSiAC, Tucker933, DRL333 and 1 other like this

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There's nothing for me to debate. My statements are very logical when you understand my viewpoint: I care nothing whatsoever for those I will never meet. I don't share your views on charity and outreach.

 

 

You know what I know of charity? Volunteering at a soup kitchen in Middle School and seeing some of my classmates there. Going with my aunt to bring meals to the elderly, who had nobody else to take care of them.

 

I worry about myself and those around me. My family, my friends, my coworkers, my community. The people I know who are hurting and suffering in a land where opportunity has passed them by.

 

I do not care or have any worry for anybody else. If keeping immigrants out of the country means that people I know (of any nationality, legal tax paying citizens who came here legally) will have more access to jobs and resources that should be going to them, then I don't care what effect it has on those who can no longer leach off America and send our resources back home.

 

If keeping Migrants and Refugees out of the country means that we aren't setting them up with houses and jobs that could have been setup to, once again, legal tax paying citizens, then I don't care how bad their situation is halfway across the world.

 

If defunding planned parenthood for foreign countries means there's millions of dollars that can be used to help Americans, I don't care how many foreign women are no longer getting treatment.

 

If cancelling trade deals and treaties that cause a financial detriment to American workers allows us to restructure those, I don't care how many foreigners are out of work because of it. I don't care that Ford is shutting down a plant that would've helped support an impoverished region of the world. I don't care that a 15% tariff may cause companies to abandon these countries and bring work back to Americans.

 

None of these people should have ever had that to start with. American money, American trade deals, American immigration laws, they should benefit Americans.

 

And before you call your racism bullshit; My housekeeping department is filled with some of the hardest working women in this country, who came here legally. Who pay taxes to support their community, to keep the roads paved and the schools in session. Every one of them of Latin descent, some who can't speak English. I work with them daily, I admire and respect the work they do and the struggles they themselves face. They are as American as you and I.

 

My parents are facing bankruptcy. They've been facing it, on the edge of it, for about 5 years now. I barely make ends meet, and I have no belief that the future will be better for me. There are days I don't have food; I don't give one single damn about anyone else, because not a one of them will ever give a damn about me.

 

 

When Trump speaks of the forgotten, he speaks of me. He speaks of my family. He speaks of the people doing everything right, working long hours for short pay, who are getting left behind. Who never had a chance.

 

You want a debate? You want logic? What logical reason is there that an illegal immigrant can have access to food stamps and welfare, live in a rent controlled home and drive on the roads my taxes bought, while they themselves work illegally paying no taxes.

 

You find a logical answer for that and maybe I'll listen to the rest of your argument. But for right now, I'm worried about me.

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18 minutes ago, DeadHamster said:

I care nothing whatsoever for those I will never meet.

This is precisely the problem. This country isn't an anarchy, and never was. It's highly detrimental to society both locally and globally.

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2 hours ago, tarikja said:

Well I fail to see how that is relevant to the topic.
It seems like your only posting these headlines, which in general put Germany in a rather bad light, as an attempt to attack me because I live in this country. A pointless effort.
Not even considering the validity of those headlines.

 

Well, it wasn't relevant until you decidedly made it relevant. You flatter yourself too much, it has nothing to do with you. All nations deal with their own social and geopolitical issues, I posted the headlines to counter your seemingly inflammatory remarks about the US needing to 'fix" itself. Glass houses and all that. 

Well, I'd imagine the headlines are as valid as your comments concerning the US. 
 

1 hour ago, Tucker933 said:

It's amazing to me that I've never seen these opinions expressed by @DeadHamster or @Wojtek till Trump started adressing problems with such solutions. Maybe you guys always felt them, but it's a bit telling that they weren't expressed (as far as I saw in previous debates) before this race. It would imply on some level you felt the views were wrong, though maybe a nessecary evil. The thing is that these problems of immigration and over-extension have much smarter solutions that haven't been pursued by this country either (many of which other countries have adopted), and people have only committed themselves to supporting such strategies as Trump suggests because they're easy on paper, and based on hate. Hate is easy to brew, and goes hand in hand with ignorance, which will never result positively.

 

You've chosen blame rather than adaptation. We've always had blame. It's time to move on.

 

I don't ever remember posting anywhere in this thread I supported what Trump was doing...thank you for making assumptions. 

 

What Trump is doing is perfectly legal and has been exercised before by previous administrations. His "ban", which isn't a ban, but a suspension of immigration over a 90 day period from seven nations ( Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen), out of the forty-nine Muslim majority nations in the world. This isn't a ban on Muslims, NO ONE from the listed countries can travel to the US, including Christians, Buddhists, Atheists or any other religions, because the suspension isn't on religious grounds, but geopolitical. This hyperbole about Trump enacting a "Muslim ban" is patently false and is being aggregated in an attempt to cause hysteria and division. 

 

The problem isn't Trump, it's people who don't remember anything outside of a 72-hour news cycle. These seven nations have one thing in common, they're in states of conflict involving rival factions,  jihadist insurgencies and terror group safe havens, who've made open threats against the United States and it's citizens. 

 

We are in the age of global terrorism, a threat that is new and constantly changes. Other than mass hysteria and hyperbole, does anyone opposing Trump's suspension have any "smarter solutions that haven't been pursued by this country" yet? Maybe they should contact the White House, State Department, or Attorney General with their solution, instead of posting on Twitter or posting diatribes about hate, or posting anti-Trump memes?

Edited by Wojtek
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5 minutes ago, Tucker933 said:

This is precisely the problem. This country isn't an anarchy, and never was. It's highly detrimental to society both locally and globally.

 

You had to ignore my entire post to make that statement true. But thats a liberal's favorite argument; pick at a single bit, take it out of context and use big words to avoid saying anything, all with an air of superiority. 

 

"Your way of thinking is primitive. If you were cultured you'd understand" 

 

Not a single one of the things I spoke of would damage us locally. Not a single one spoke of anarchy. It spoke of putting Americans before the rest of the world. Controlling immigration and keeping out refugees lets us divert the money and time to americans. 

 

And to clarify again in very simple terms; fuck the globe. I think you missed that part. 

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23 minutes ago, Wojtek said:

Other than mass hysteria and hyperbole, does anyone opposing Trump's suspension have any "smarter solutions that haven't been pursued by this country" yet? Maybe they should contact the White House, State Department, or Attorney General with their solution, instead of posting on Twitter or posting diatribes about hate, or posting anti-Trump memes?

As you know, it's not as simple as showing alternatives that work elsewhere. Changing policy is hard without a combined front, which has just never significantly been there before "us vs them" (hate) was used to rally. The problem is reason is a lot harder to come by than fear is. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree, but in my opinion it's being used entirely to the wrong ends, as throughout history it always has.

 

The problems we have need to be worked rather than removed, because the problems are with other human-beings. Immigrants for example would be best filtered by their capability of contribution, which is easy to gauge (employers do it all time time), other than in extreme circumstances such as with refugees, which should simply just be given temporary asylum (until the reason for their resettlement is solved, or a permanent alternative is found) to a capacity no more than a certain percentage higher than other countries accepting them. 

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